It's A Pod Deal: Ministry Conversations With Lifelong Pastor Ronnie Worsham

John: Welcome back, everyone.

You are listening to it's a pod
deal, ministry conversations with

lifelong pastor, Ronnie Worsham.

I'm Jon Von Runnen.

We have William Royal here and
we have the one and only Ronnie

Worsham sitting across from us.

So welcome to this beautiful
Tuesday morning in January,

towards the end of January.

So is that right?

William: January of 25

John: of 25.

Yes, that's true.

We should throw the year in there.

So, yeah, we wanted to do a
discussion today just about the

Bible in general and talk a little
bit about ways to look at it.

How different things to look for and
then how to apply it as individuals

and churches in our community.

This was prompted through William,
a thought that he had on some things

that Ronnie was talking about in
the last episode and specifically

about the onion, which I think Ronnie
will get to peel back the layers of.

You like see what I did

William: Very

John: Yeah, it's good.

No tears though.

No

William: No

John: Okay, no tears.

So yeah that's what we're going to
do for today and this could take

an hour and it could take 15 hours.

We just have no idea what it's going
to take, but we'll split it up into

multiple episodes if we need to.

But before we get into that
we don't have any necessarily

any listener questions today.

But, William, you had a question
you wanted to get Ronnie to

speak to, so, take it away.

William: I did, Yeah, something i've
been kind of thinking about Since

we recorded an episode a couple
months ago about politics is just

this kind of dilemma that we have as
christians To really, like, step into

certain things, and to be a light,
and to bring Jesus into those places.

And then, I guess the alternative choice
to, just to choose to not engage at all.

And that could be, you know, so that we
don't get corrupted or tempted ourselves.

It could be because we feel like our
efforts are better suited in other places.

But yeah, I think one of the things we
discussed specifically in the politics

episode, and you can correct me if
you didn't feel this way but I kind of

felt like one of the main things we.

Kind of discussed was that in politics
specifically it might be better to

not engage much at all And it just
kind of brought up a question in my

mind of like, okay as christians.

How do we discern?

I'm gonna i'm gonna step
into this sinful arena.

I'm gonna step into this difficult place
and i'm gonna bring jesus there and i'm

gonna bring the light of christ into
that Versus i'm not engaging at all.

So do you have any thoughts about that?

Ronnie: Yes, I have tons
of thoughts about it.

You know, it's an obvious conversation.

among all of us.

So I've been in these conversations
for my whole adult life, even before my

dad used to sit around with his friends
and they would talk about politics.

That was just a big constant
among a lot of people.

So trying to kind of grow out
of just an, a reaction against

that to say, I don't want to hear
any more arguments about that.

You can overreact to those things
just like you can with discussions

about the Bible and religion.

There's lots of subjects we can run
from because we're reacting against

the way people did that rather
than against the subject itself.

But This is a matter of conscience.

The way, though, that we have to go at
that is we start with Jesus as our model.

We look at our Bible examples of
people following Jesus as our examples,

Paul being the one we have the most
information about, but certainly we see

the original apostles in their context
with Jesus, and some things about the

early church in society in the book
of Acts, and then some little bits

and pieces in the letters about that.

And then you've got Revelation,
which very much is talking about

the church in the world it was in.

And you look at how God has dealt
with The world when he divided the

people and ultimately into these
principalities that these sons of God

are these powerful beings that again,
he calls Elohim in Psalm 82, again,

divine beings, not Yahweh, not creator,
but they're called God's Elohim.

You know, there was a lot going on, and
when you look at these references through

the Old Testament about the other gods
he was not talking about gods that were

equal to God, but he's talking about these
powerful divine beings that are active.

They're contending with, you
see, these depictions of, Michael

fighting against these beings we read
about the Prince of Persia holding

up the great warrior Archangel.

These are very powerful beings.

And this is real.

This is not superhero, Spider
Man kind of movie stuff.

This is real.

And we can see this in our society when
we see such darkness among some people

groups and such ugliness that goes on.

So I don't.

I don't think humanity up until the
last generations have really questioned

that there were gods over nations.

It was more often than not in the
ancient world, they would they would

follow their god into these wars.

And so you see the whole, it
starts with Babel, Babylon.

And this, and it, Babylon becomes a
figure, a power figure of the world.

And these ancient powers,
Egypt becomes one of those too.

That, and we see God using those countries
to shape his people in the middle of

this, which is, I think Paul is getting
at that in, in First Corinthians 2,

when he's talking about these things
were kept secret so that God could

carry out his purpose, just like he
used Pharaoh to carry out his purpose.

He used Nebuchadnezzar to
carry out his purpose, but that

didn't mean he fixed everything.

That didn't mean he overthrew them.

He could have squashed
them, but he did not.

And the question is why not?

Because it didn't fit within his purpose.

He has a bigger purpose that
he's bringing about, and that's

the narrative of the Scripture.

So that God's people have never
been affected by politics that's

part of our story in the Bible.

And then when you look at the
early church and its interactions

with the powers that be in Israel.

which were primarily political.

Herod was certainly not any
kind of a biblical Jewish king.

He was a corrupt, sly fox.

He just was, you know, trying
to take hold of the kingdom.

But Jesus didn't overthrow him.

We don't even see an encounter
that Jesus initiated.

What Jesus did was built the
kingdom of God in the midst of it.

And so whatever we feel we need to do,
there's a conscientiousness about what we

might feel like God's calling us to do.

Moses was raised in the Pharaoh's
house, a new Pharaoh, you know.

Had come along and so Moses was sent back
to the Pharaoh and we see this encounter.

That's risky business for Moses and
Aaron to do what they did with that man.

He could have had their head
chopped off easily, thrown them

in the dungeon, but he didn't.

Why didn't he?

I can only assume God was.

Doing his deal.

So I don't mean to say we don't
interact because we're forced to.

We can't ignore our administrations
back and forth in our

society and our role in that.

So I think that I think of it in terms
of, I, I was trying to think when you

asked the question, I would have to go
back and look, but When Jesus prayed

for the disciples in John 17, one of
the things he prayed was that he was

sending them into the world but they
wouldn't, they, they wouldn't be of it.

And it seems like one of the older
trans translations was that they

would be in the world, but not of it.

I may be not, that may be a
summary and not a quote, but that.

It resonated with me because in my
early, earliest church experience,

there was a little bit of, you know,
modern day monk mentality in the sense

of, you know, the more sectarian you
get you know, you're just, you're

not supposed to be with anybody.

I mean, I remember being told
avoid all appearance of evil.

So, you know, you couldn't go to another
church that we didn't agree with because

people would think you supported that.

Literally I was told that by
occasionally the people you hang out

with, then, you know, you hang out
with people that, you know, get drunk

and party and mess around and people
are going to think you support that.

And you know, as I begin to
process this, number one, I just

thought if I went to church with
somebody else, you know, I don't.

No, many people would think
that I supported that.

I don't, I just don't,
I didn't think that way.

I, but the same with you look at Jesus
going to these socials that these people

were having, they could have thought
he was a self righteous Pharisee.

They called him a drunkard and a glutton
because he hung out with people, so,

so should Christians go to parties
where people are drinking and we know

many of them are going to get drunk?

I've been to several because there were
people that I was trying to befriend and

reach out to were having these parties.

It's like, I don't even drink, but I
always made sure I went earlier because

I just, that way I could be there.

And then leave a little earlier before
some of the other stuff got started.

And so politics is that way.

I mean, we're Americans.

There's a lot of people that see us as
corrupt hypocrites, greedy, self centered

people, just because we're Americans.

Are we supposed to leave America?

Where are you going to go?

Humans are going to think that.

So this thing about politics, it's you are
going to automatically be in the world.

I do believe these powerful spiritual
forces of evil, they go, pardon me,

say evil goes where power grows.

Of course they're going
to be involved in that.

That's why I think the farther
up the food chain you get in

politics, the stronger the evil
that's trying to influence that is.

And it's just galling
what we see at that level.

I mean, not just in America,
but all over the world.

It's like, how do these people do this?

How could you do that?

So I think each person has to pray
about this, talk to people that

know them, and then follow their
convictions and their conscience.

The problem is, it's rare is the
person that I've ever seen that

would say I'm going to go do this
or that and be a light to them.

That they're not.

More affected by that in the end than
the people they're trying to affect.

And that's a generalization.

So I would say whatever you do,
you need to have other godly

people kind of in it with you.

Two of you at least that are involved
and then and be very measured in that.

And ask yourself, what are you trying to
do and what's reasonable that you can do?

Because again, I'm going to come back
to say one on one's how it's done.

Our best influence in the end is going
to come down to the influence at the

character level we can have on people.

Because again, you can, if your
character is really godly, you can

be in some pretty rough context
and not within your self sin.

I've never been a drinker or partier.

I could go have a quiet time at a bar.

I'm not tempted to get into any of that.

But there are other
things I wouldn't want.

To be around because we
all have our temptations.

So that's not going to be my deal.

But and I have gone to bars a few times.

To sit and talk to some people,
because I had some people that were

a couple of times that were getting
into some really bad stuff there.

And I just, they were shocked when I
walked in and went and sat with them.

And you know, just said,
Hey, what are you doing?

You know, because I cared about them.

Wasn't being condemning or mean.

Even then, and that was a long time ago.

William, I think that I try to vote.

But again, how much do
you want to get involved?

You look at our elections.

How much time should we invest in
studying every school board candidate?

And even if you read a little bit
about them, how much would you really

know about who they really are?

So you're going to have
to go meet all of them.

Then you've got scores
of candidates and things.

And before long, you've spent hundreds
of hours on these political things and

you've not prayed much at all about it.

So I.

I just think we have to be very
careful, William, and I, because I

think prayer is the most we can do.

I do think Christians need to
be heard, in a sense, because

the politicians care about what
Christians as a In general thing,

because they're trying to get votes.

So if they know what's a big deal to us,
they're going to at least moderate some

of their positions or else they know that
they're not going to get those votes.

So we can definitely influence
just in a political way by.

But I think this, you know,
saying mean things and yelling

and screaming and all that.

I just that's not the
way Christ did think.

I just think that, you know.

You just need to live and learn
and think about what you're doing.

But as I said before, the
political parties as they

exist are inherently sinful.

They're divisive.

They're, you know, they just divide
against each other and fight and

they're slanderous against each other.

You know, so you have to be careful.

I could not be a member of a
political party, my conviction.

But with that said, I can't vote for
either party and feel great about it.

I mean, we just had a president
that, I mean, lots of really smelly

stuff going on around him that just
gave blanket immunities to all of

his family, him, all these people.

It's like.

You know, to me, that's just an admission
of it, but they're saying he's going to

do it to protect them from the next one.

What's the next one?

Remember when they were in and all the
stinky smelly stuff that was going on?

So if I say i'm really for this one
and he's it's like What did I just say?

For what?

For these ugly comments?

For these derogatory things that are said?

For this arrogance?

And I can't say I support that person.

To me, it has always been
the lesser of two evils.

And that's just the truth.

But who among us would I
want to vote to be president?

Are any of us qualified?

You know, it's just this thing that's
happened and it's And God lets it happen.

I just think each person has to really
follow their conscience, but the big

deal is we've got to be about the
mission of Christ and kingdom building.

And as ambassadors of the kingdom, in
the truest sense, we don't get involved

in civilian affairs in the sense that
we're participating as one of them.

We're in it, but we're not of it.

We're representing the
kingdom of God's interest.

Whatever party we're dealing with,
whatever issue we're dealing with,

we're representing the interest of
God as ambassadors of the kingdom

that reigns supreme above it all.

Is that easy?

No, it's not.

But it's the right question.

So, and then we have to be gentle
with each other and our judgments.

Back to eating meat offered to
idols one man can, one man can't.

I don't have to say you don't love
God because you're not going to

this protest or because you're not
supporting this candidate or you're

not getting on Facebook and making
such and such post and for or against.

That's just rancor and I don't
think that's the spirit of Christ.

You know, Jesus, he stayed on his
mission and he dealt with all of

those forces as he encountered them.

I don't think Jesus
went looking for demons.

There's some, this spiritual warfare
kind of movement that's going

on that it's like we're kind of,
we're going to go fight the demons.

That's not even what Jesus did.

They're there.

They're going to contend with
you, but that's not our mission.

God will fix that in the end.

We have to deal with them as they come.

Jesus dealt with them as they came.

So that's the deal.

William: Yeah, that's great.

That's very helpful.

Okay.

Shall we dive into our topic for the day?

Yeah, so, John mentioned this.

This is a topic that we had
discussed as a potential idea.

And then, as we were recording
last week, you mentioned Do we call

it, do we just call it the onion?

Where did we get that?

Is

Ronnie: I don't call it the onion.

I use it as an illustration.

It's just the concentric circles

William: circles, right?

Ronnie: use to kind of help
people understand what we're

trying to do to use the Bible.

To see God, not God doesn't live
in the Bible, but to see the person

of God through the description
so we can see him in creation.

So we can see him in the world.

He's preeminent in the world.

Paul says God's Invisible
qualities are perceivable, clearly

perceivable through creation.

And he mentions two things, his power,
his eternal power, and his divine nature.

So, you know, both which we think
of theologically, but I also

think of them scientifically.

I think to do science
right is to do theology.

We're studying the creator
and how he thinks, how he does

things, what his nature's like.

And I, to me, that's huge.

So it's those concentric circles
that I don't know, William.

I couldn't tell you.

I didn't see somebody draw this one time.

I don't, that's the lifelong pastor stuff.

It's like, my gosh, I've sat through so
many classes, read so many books, looked

up so many things, preach so many sermons.

I just don't claim any
originality for anything.

I do accept responsibility for it.

I am a person with a mind to sort
things, parse things out, and I have a

mind to synthesize lots of ideas into
some, you know, these practical things.

And so many things we do are Ultimately,
these, each of them, a synthesis of a

whole lot of ideas, not just things I've
learned, but things I've learned from you

guys and the churches we come from and
the questions we have and the suggestions

we have, it becomes this, you know, it's
the church of God, the way he does it.

But so yeah, these concentric
circles are pushing back against

some of the old hermeneutics.

Which we'll talk about in a minute
that came about so but that is

the way I interpret scripture

William: So we were talking about
that a little bit last week and

it just, it reminded me that I
wanted to have this conversation.

Because for me personally, growing up
in our churches, um, I feel like I was

given a way to read the Bible that then
when I would, you know, visit other

churches or hear other people talk about
the Bible it was not, it was different.

It was a different approach.

Ronnie: How was it different william?

William: The best way that I can
explain it is it was less rules.

It was less the Bible You know,
the Bible says this, so we, you

know, like, that's the rule.

Ronnie: You're saying the way
you grew up in our church.

It was less rules.

William: it was more what you're
talking about, of what is behind,

what is the heart of God in this text?

And, you know, growing up, I went to
a Christian private school, but even

before that in elementary school, I
would have conversations or hear kids

talking about that's not in the Bible.

So it's okay.

Or, and that part of that
is just kids talking.

But as we grew up and, you know, matured
a little bit, I would still even here

and still even today as an adult here,
people discuss the Bible that way.

Where's that in the Bible where
it's just this kind of like.

Okay.

Basically this rule book mentality
of like the Bible exists to teach

you what to do and what not to do.

So that's one example.

I think another one is just, you
know, I never heard anybody discuss

context when it came to the Bible.

There was never any conversation about.

What was going on in the literary
style of what we were reading or

who wrote something or when it
was written It was all very much.

Here's this thing.

Here's a verse that
talks about this thing.

So here we go and Yeah, so so As
I got older and began to read more

and more of the Bible and primarily
in college, started to listen to

sermons from different churches or
dive into different denominations and

their different beliefs and things.

Yeah, I was just pretty shocked to,
to find a different approach, a much

different approach, at least in what
I felt just to the Bible in general.

And so I wanted, yeah, I just wanted
to have a conversation about how

we got, how you got to the place
growing up in a fundamentalist church

of Christ, how you got to the place
with the scripture where you wanted.

To approach it differently, or where you
learned to approach it differently, and

why, um, and then just kind of talk about
what that's looked like for you, and And

maybe even have more conversation about
how you passed that along to all of us.

So, does that kind of

sound, does that make,
everything make sense, and,

Ronnie: Absolutely.

Let

John: you did a great job setting it up.

William: great.

Okay yeah, what were you going to

Ronnie: me make, I just, let me make
a, to this first thing we talked

about, you know, when I started the
church, I did what most people did.

We're, there's something
that prompts us to do that.

Either a friend invites us
and arouses our curiosity.

Lots of people start looking at this
after they've gone through trial or

trouble and they're just knocked flat on
their back and they're just desperate.

That's where I was at an emotional level.

I, my whole life was just
really down on top of me that

whole second year of college.

I moved in by myself.

It just continued.

I was carrying this weight on me.

That was just my deal.

I mean, again, from the outside,
people wouldn't have seen that.

I was just like every other, I
was probably 20 at that time.

And just, you know, you put on your
mask in the morning and you go out

and you do your deal and trying to
think about it, but I did it night.

And I did when I was by myself, but
when I started the church, I was

just looking for life answers, but
in that I was going to church, the

church of Christ really focused on
the Bible and how it was put together

and the primary steps to being saved.

They called it the plan of salvation.

The correct way to do church.

You know, to a lesser degree into the
things that I, as a 20 year old guy was

dealing with, nobody talked about it.

You know, I just laugh when we, most
young people are thinking about girls

and guys and sex and trying to figure out
how to tame this beast that lives in us

thinking about the future and how do we.

What are we going to do and
how are we going to do it?

And there's pressure coming down on
us to make a decision at 16, what I'm

going to do with for the rest of my
life and where am I going to college?

Yada.

And it's like, my gosh, it's just a whole
new first world problems that we have.

But what I found as I was reading the
Bible was There were passages that meant

a lot to me that weren't being talked
about, like the one that really turned me.

Here's the conclusion of the whole matter,
fear God and keep his commandments.

This is your whole purpose.

And it's like, Oh.

You know, for me as a pragmatist, that's
just, okay, if that's true, and I wasn't

sure it was not that I disagreed with it.

I was just at that stage of my
life questioning everything.

And I was skeptical for my own
reasons, as we all are to some degree.

But there were scriptures
like Proverbs 30, verse five,

every word of God proves true.

It's like, you know, just thinking
about then trying to think about

the word of God, but when you
read the Bible, most of the words

you're reading are not God talking.

I mean, like I say, I, the first try
to time I read through it really a

second half of Exodus just, I think I
slogged my way through it, Leviticus.

I just died there and I
went to the New Testament.

Yeah.

I just.

It was so foreign to me and I'm thinking,
what does this have to do with anything

I'm dealing with, you know, it's just,
it just aroused so many more questions.

You know, I was God going out
to meet Moses to kill him.

It's like, oh my gosh, I don't,
I've already got a lot of questions.

I don't even know how to study that.

When I went to Jesus,
it made a lot of sense.

And I really fell in love with
scripture, not all the rules.

The ones that I loved were what I
would call the inspiring scriptures.

I fell in love with Jesus, not the
biographical stuff about Jesus, but

just the way he dealt with people,
the way he talked to people, the way

the Sermon on the Mount was certainly
enthralling to me because it really does

kind of lay out the teachings of Christ.

So I was very much that way.

And I really did counsel myself
through scriptures a lot.

Again, that's not, that was
not coming from really so much.

My church a lot of that was just coming
from me even reading You know like

barclays commentary somebody that had
a more It, those are more devotional

readings than they are commentaries.

They're not even called a commentary,
they're called daily readings,

but they were very helpful to me
in how to think about scripture.

And it meant a lot to me because it
really wasn't dealing with the rules,

it was dealing with the meanings.

So, I really, I was taught Pattern
Theology it made sense, but I

hadn't read the whole scripture.

William: You define that real quick.

Ronnie: It was, it really came down
to going through the New Testament and

looking for direct commands that apply to
everybody, looking for approved examples.

What the first century church
did and then looking for the

necessary inferences of that.

And it was a hermeneutic hermeneutics
was something that goes back several

centuries, really probably as more as
a science originated in Greece with

Aristotle and Plato and some of their.

way of thinking about how
do we think about words?

How do we interpret things?

It ultimately, predominantly kind of
came down to how to read and interpret

sacred writings, because there are
hermeneutics in Islam and other

religions, but there's the whole branch of
Christianity, Christian hermeneutics, is

how do we read these ancient scriptures?

How do we think about them?

How do we interpret them?

But pattern theology was you go through
the New Testament, you look for that,

and you, Ultimately, you basically
turn the New Testament back into a law.

You reduce it back to these basic
things that we have to do to be saved.

That's why when you look at
churches statement of faith, so

much of it, what they're talking,
what they're putting there is we

think these are the fundamentals.

We think these are the things
you have to believe or practice

in order to be right with God.

Now, the fundamentalists took
that, you know, to the extreme,

but they didn't invent it.

Fundamentalism grew out of that.

So, That was what I was taught.

The more I read the scripture and the more
I applied the scripture, the more power I

had to say, wait, I've read these verses.

I've read every verse of the Bible.

I've read lots of use.

I've got, I'm going to weigh in on this.

John: I was with a guy yesterday
that has been coming to our church

for quite a while and I've developed
friendship with, and I've heard his

story before his conversion story
before, but he was kind of talking

back through some of that yesterday.

And it was interesting to me, he in
college had become an alcoholic and

was just, you know, really miserable
and drinking a ton every day.

And he went and he had heard something
about the Bible somewhere along the

way and went and bought a Bible.

Went back to his, I think it was
his apartment, I think it was

out of the dorms at that point.

And started reading, just flipped open
to Matthew and started in the, you

know, the first chapter of Matthew
and started reading through it.

And he said, it just felt like something
significantly changed in his life.

Like, in those moments That there
was this huge shift and kind of

breaking of problems and addiction
and different things in his life.

And he said he, by the time he got
to the the attitudes that he was just

weeping, like this was in the course of
just a few, you know, a few hours and

then walked over went to the kitchen,
poured out all his beer and like

started this relationship with God.

And then sometime later, six months later,
nine months later he got connected with

somebody on campus and like his life has
been completely different ever since.

Can you think of other stories like
that of people that you've met along

the way where you know, their life was
a certain way, maybe just a couple.

I don't think we have to
spend a ton of time on this.

I was just, as you were explaining
that and the impact the Bible.

Had on you I thought of him yesterday
saying that and just kind of this, you

know Meteor that kind of hit his life and
completely changed things for the good.

Are there any stories like that?

kind of stand out to you, I
know i'm putting you on the spot

Ronnie: no, that's fine.

I, my mind immediately went to part
of pattern theology was they went

through the book of acts and Look for
the commonality of all the conversions

and that was somewhat helpful, but
you know, there's a difficulty in that

because really they're all different.

They all come from different places and
I'm thinking, Oh wait, we're missing.

I think the bigger story that
God meets people where they are.

And different people
were in different places.

And so, you know, I think that's
the deal, John, is God meets

different people in different places.

For some people, they're
sitting in a Bible class.

For some people, they're at church.

For some people, they're
listening to a song on the radio.

For some people they're desperate
and they get their Bible.

For me, I went to church.

It's all I knew how to do.

And I'm sitting there and
this preacher's preaching.

And the next thing I know I'm walking down
the aisle, really just committing myself,

I'm going to go to church for a year.

It's all I knew how to do.

I didn't even know where you got a Bible.

Now that's changed in society, this
guy did, but yeah, I've seen lots of

people in lots of different places you
know, from the guy that gave me the

Elmer Gantry book, he was a Mensa guy.

I mean, 145, 150 IQ, complete
geek, you know, a really neat guy.

But he had never been around intelligent
Christians in his mind that would

engage him at a more intellectual level.

And so he met one of our guys and
he, but he wanted to talk about it.

And he, they brought him to me and
he was just kind of shocked when he

found out I had a degree in chemistry,
I don't, all my degrees are secular.

And then I would discuss that with
him, that I understood atheism

and why people wouldn't believe.

Um, and he became a Christian.

And when he brought me that Elmer
Gantry book, he wrote in the

front, thanks for being unto me.

He won as It's Andrew Pingilly
and Andrew Pingilly is this little

Methodist pastor that's sincere.

He really has a little bit row.

He shows up twice and disappears

John: In elmer

Ronnie: In the book Elmer Gantry and it
was, but that was his way of saying, I

met somebody that I thought was sincere.

It was a person in his case.

You met Austin.

It's like, Here was a peer, somebody
like you, that was from a family.

He loved God.

If you had met me before you met
Austin, that probably, our deal

probably never would have happened.

But that's just the way God works.

He it's often incremental.

It's not probably just coincidental.

He started reading Matthew.

Well, the whole AA 12 steps come
out of the Sermon on the Mount.

You know, I mean, he was reading
what really drove these early

alcoholics to take these principles
and apply them to their addiction.

But we're all addicted to something.

We're addicted to ourselves.

We're addicted to our pleasures.

Whatever they are, that's where
we get our dopamine surge.

But the problem with that is, in the
world, you just need more of all of that.

The first time is great.

The second time is not as good.

The third time you need a whole lot more.

Whether it's drugs or food or pleasure, we
just, we're looking for the next big deal.

But it's never the same.

Going to Disney World, it's
never going to be the same as

the first time you went as a kid.

You just can't get there, you know, and
all those experiences and some of that

is helpful in that it drives us to grow
in certain things and so forth in our

marriages and our love for our mates.

That's part of that process of
bonding that God uses to bond us.

So, John, I, thinking about specific
people, that would be a harder thing,

but yes, I mean, I hear, I've heard
stories through the years of people that,

you know, just woke up in the middle
of the night and decided they needed to

go to church and showed up somewhere.

Yeah, God's always working, but God
meets people where they are, whether

it's just your, the roommate that
talks to you, the person on your

sports team, the, it's just the right
person, the right time, the right

situation, and God gets your attention.

Jesus, when he talked to Zacchaeus in
Jericho, caught him right at the right

moment because that story is just.

It's very abrupt.

He jumps down and repents.

It's like, there, there obviously
is some kind of backstory.

John: Yeah.

Ronnie: There always

John: Yeah, okay.

I just didn't know if there
was people who maybe popped

out in your mind over the years

Ronnie: Yeah, I can't think
of a I thought of the one guy.

John: Yeah, that's good.

William: I kind of want to jump back
a little bit just for any listeners

who might be like, okay, I don't
have any experience with the Bible.

I, you know, I'm familiar with it in
the sense of people talk about it, but

I don't know what, I don't even know
what Christians believe about the Bible.

Will you just go back and talk about.

You know, what's the commonly held
belief that all Christians share

about the Bible and maybe even touch
on the origins of the scripture?

I know that's a big

conversation, specifically

how the Bible came to be and all
that, but will you just talk about

what it is and how it, how we got it?

Ronnie: Yes.

This, it's obviously a big topic, but
the, it really is rooted in our Old

Testament narrative in that the story
is God had people write down things and

God wrote things down on the tablets of
stone and gave the people their law and

the Jews revered the, what was probably
pronounced the Torah, as we would

know it today, those first five books.

that contain kind of the story of
how Israel came to be and how the Ten

Commandments and the other 600 plus
ordinances that went with it came to be.

That governed every facet of Jewish life
as a theocracy, as a God ruled society.

Always pointed to the next chapter in
all of this, that another prophet was

coming, Moses said in Deuteronomy, a
bigger prophet, a more important prophet.

And then, of course, the writings.

What are often called the books of poetry.

They're the books of writings.

It's Job, Psalms, Proverbs,
Ecclesiastes, and Song of Songs.

They are this very much an expressive
literature of Israel that was expressing

the experiences that people were having.

The psalms were somewhat
the hymnal of Israel.

They wrote these psalms and they
would chant these things or some kind

of a cantor would, you know, put a
tune to a song, but it was nothing

nearly as sophisticated as what
we're experiencing in church today.

But nonetheless, it was music and
they would speak it to each other.

Even in the early church, they would have
a line or two and Groups would repeat

them to each other and they would sing
them to each other and that was just a

part of the deal Families would do that.

I grew up in a family that we sang at
home That's kind of a lost thing in most

families and it's just not what we do
but the Then there were the prophets,

and those are the last books, the
last 17 books are called the prophets.

Those were the kind of national
preachers of Israel that were

speaking into the culture, as well
as some of the surrounding cultures,

these messages from God, and in that
often foretelling what was to come.

And that's why we see a lot of the
prophecies about Jesus from Isaiah.

As he was kind of tying together the
demise of Israel and what was happening

there as, you know, the northern part
of that had been already captured and

just were being occupied by Assyria
and Babylon was, had overthrown Assyria

and was closing in on Jerusalem,
which was the sacred city for them.

where their temple was.

And, you know, how can this be?

How can God let this happen?

And Isaiah was saying, they're
not going to take it right now.

But he gives this picture of this
new Jerusalem stuff and this weeping

prophet, the Isaiah 53, and describes
Jesus and the great invitation

of Isaiah 55 that God gives.

And just so many of the metaphors
that flow into the New Testament

are just quoted over and over.

But again Transcribed They
did what most people do.

We always kind of, we're self centric.

And so everything applies to us.

We can't, we just can't do that.

It's like, you know, the quote unquote end
times eschatology in the new Testament,

everybody through the ages, there's
always been a large group of people that

interpreted that as during their time.

They would take those kinds of really
metaphorical images that God gave.

And then saying that yeah, the end
times have started after Jesus left.

They're called the last days in Hebrew.

So it's not like it's We've been in
the last days the whole time, but

we want to interpret it that way.

So along come the apostles, along
comes Jesus, along comes John the

Baptist, the first quote unquote
prophet in 400 years to Israel.

And I mean, he looks like
and acts like Elijah.

He's a wild man.

Elijah was that way.

These guys were not spiffed
up, fancy city preachers.

God didn't work that way.

That's not how God usually works.

And that's how humans work.

So anyway, John the Baptist comes on
to announce the coming of Jesus and the

quote unquote prepare the way for Christ.

When you go read about John the
Baptist, you're saying, how the heck

did he prepare the way of Christ?

The prophecy, he was going to turn the
hearts of the fathers to the children

was they're saying the fathers of
Israel to the coming generations,

probably, but that's not what said.

That's an interpretation of that.

How did John the Baptist do any of that?

When the leaders from Jerusalem came
out, he rebuked them, called them a

den of snakes and sent them back pack
and he wouldn't even baptize them.

It's like, Oh, okay you know,
and then he insulted Herod and

ended up getting his head cut off.

So, how did he prepare the way of Christ?

That's the question you need to
answer, because it's saying God

does not work the way men do.

It's Isaiah 55.

As the heavens are higher than the
earth, so are my ways than your ways,

and my thoughts than your thoughts.

When you see people doing all of God's
stuff in ways that really make sense

to humans, you're probably already off.

God doesn't work that way.

He really makes the
wisdom of men look stupid.

That's why he goes and calls these, you
know, these guys he called these apostles

that didn't fit the mold of leaders.

I think sometimes we, we
don't give them enough credit.

We act like they're just complete
idiots, but they weren't, they

just weren't from the right place.

They didn't speak the right language.

They didn't go to the right college.

But when you look at what they
did for Jesus, you're saying,

oh no, these were not goofballs.

They were raw stones that
Jesus was going to shape.

And that's where most of us come
from, is just, we're unlikely.

And we have to be very careful about
these human situa institutions and

systems we put in place that produce a
certain kind of product over and over.

Because you can't do the things
of God in the ways of men.

So you're gonna be a, you're
gonna tick people off.

But we're supposed to
make everybody happy.

I've not been that person.

I wasn't trying to tick people
off, but you just speak the truth.

You ask questions, you
say, I don't see that.

This doesn't look like Jesus.

The powers that be won't like that because
you need to just I literally had an elder

tell me one time, and this is what really
drove me out of all of that old stuff.

This is one of the things he said,
Ronnie, you need to quit thinking

so much and start imitating.

He said those words to me
and later said he didn't.

He did.

I was just shocked.

Was it a Freudian slip on his part?

Maybe.

But he said it because I remember
because it was so shocking that

there's a long back story to that.

So the Bible came about as these
apostles came on the scene.

It's the way God works.

It's just pretty organic.

There never emerges in the
scripture this story about how

the Old Testament's coming about.

It came about through the nation.

These are the people of God.

It was messy.

It was, but it was not
reflecting the glory of Israel.

It was reflecting that God
is able to work through the

imperfect and even the ungodly.

That's what the Bible is about.

But we want to create a narrative
that makes us look good.

No, that's what I said in
one of our previous ones.

When did Israel do God's will?

When did they have a
stretch of doing good,

but God still brought about Jesus
through them and he said, you're

going to reject him and they did.

He knew Israel was going to be a
bunch of complainers and they were.

But he still led them.

He still, so is that God's a failure?

No, God succeeded in
everything he was doing.

He knew humans were gonna fall.

He was crucified from the
foundation of the world.

He planned to die for our sins.

This was a, an existential trap
in creation to destroy evil.

Whatever else is happening
before creation, evil existed

in the heavenly realms.

There was rebellion and what's gonna
happen after it's not gonna be an either.

He's gonna ball it up So the New Testament
came about rather organically the four

Gospels were read first Again, ironically
the one that started writing was the one

Apostles that didn't walk with Jesus when
he was here It was Paul Saul of Tarsus

that encountered Jesus post resurrection
and he wrote the most books of the Bible.

The one that wrote the most words
of the Bible was Luke, and he

wasn't with Jesus when he was here.

And you say that doesn't make sense.

Does it make sense that Jesus
didn't write a single book?

He could have dictated it.

Maybe he did.

Maybe he wrote the whole Old Testament.

Maybe he drove the writing of it.

Because that's what John is saying.

He takes the story of
Jesus back to creation.

Genesis starts, In the beginning God
created the heavens and the earth.

John starts, his letter, I mean his gospel
in John 1, In the beginning was the word.

The word was with God
and the word was God.

And then he goes on down in verse
14 and said, and the word became

flesh and live for a while a month.

And we have beheld his glory, the glory
of the one and only son who came from

the father full of grace and truth.

You know, so there's what we're
beginning to learn is the angel

of the Lord in the old Testament.

I think about it as Jesus.

I'm saying it because we're
referring to an angelic being.

I could say him and as this emanation
from God, because he was speaking for

God and he was called God sometime.

Sometimes he's called
the angel of the Lord.

That just means a messenger of God, which
Jesus was certainly a messenger of God.

Jesus was an apostle.

Jesus was a disciple of God.

But God is everything he calls us to be.

So the New Testament arises really
organically and it ultimately

was a production of the church.

But we lead people to believe that
the Bible is the word of God, like

it dropped out of heaven, published.

That's not how it came about.

That's never been the way
God's worked in creation.

He's worked very differently.

God's ways are not our ways.

And so our New Testament arose
from the church and the church

has not, still does not agree
every book that ought to be in it.

And they would, and that brought
people to question the Bible because

the church was saying we believe in
the infallibility of the scripture.

My question is which ones, who
are you trusting that these

are the right scriptures?

Because the Apocrypha was put in,
and then it was taken out, and then

the Catholics put it back in, and the
Protestants didn't have it in there.

And books like Hebrews, it
took them a long time to get

approved, to be put in there.

Most of them, they were circulated
in little, you know, scrolls.

A gospel here, a gospel there.

Luke and Acts was probably circulated
together because Luke wrote both of those.

One about Jesus life and then the
second part about how the church

spread from Jerusalem up to Rome.

But that was his experience.

He met Paul.

You'll see Luke appear halfway
into Acts and suddenly he's there.

He's a disciple that came about
through Paul and learned from Paul.

So our New Testament is
very organic in its origin.

And so, you know, when we think about
the Bible is the word of God, honestly we

just think it's just, and then you start
reading and it doesn't sound like God.

But you're not supposed to say
that because that's irreverent.

Oh, we worship.

That's the problem with the evangelical
church movement is we worship the Bible.

That's why you were asking about
these kids that are coming in

these kids that in relationship
with, I need to read my Bible more.

And I asked the question,
what did people do?

For the centuries, they
didn't have access to a Bible.

The Jews didn't have
access to their Bible.

They went to the synagogue, they heard
readings, whatever was being read.

If they had questions, they could
go to the synagogue leader or,

you know, a rabbi, if they could
get to them and ask a question.

The teachers of the law that you
read about in the New Testament.

The early church, what we read
in Acts, they were devoted

to the apostles teaching.

Why?

Because there was no New Testament.

They were just telling
people what Jesus had said.

But they became disciples and
gave their whole lives to God

through the words of the apostles.

They took them at their word.

But why?

Because the apostles were rooting
everything they said in what these Jews

knew to be true from the Old Testament.

They were showing them that Jesus was
the fulfillment of the messianic promise.

And the commoners were the ones
that were willing to listen to it.

The people in power, not so much
because they would lose their power.

They were rooted in ancient
Israel in the way they did things.

And they had built it to keep
the power structure in place.

But the commoners, you
they were starving anyway.

They were not treated well.

The Jews never did well.

Micah told them, he has shown you what
the Lord requires to do justice, to

love mercy and walk humbly with God.

They still, when Jesus came
along, he said the same thing.

You tithe mint and dill and cumin, but
you neglect the weight of your matters of

the law, justice, mercy, and faithfulness.

They still weren't doing it.

Why?

Because they were corrupted by
evil, and they were using the

things of God to support themselves.

So our Bible is this narrative
about how God works through an evil,

fallen world, and how in that He
works through evil, fallen people.

Fallen people to show his glory.

He chose through the church
to make his wisdom known to

the principalities and powers.

He's making, we are his sermon
to these evil beings, the church.

What's the point?

We're so good.

No, we're so bad.

We're so bad.

We've never been good.

When has the church ever been good?

We can't agree.

We can't agree on the basics.

We fuss and we argue and we fight and
the things that are big to God, like

love one another as I've loved you.

We never get to that because we've got
to argue about the fundamentals and who's

right about, you know, this and that.

And we just don't even have directive.

Our New Testament is not written that way.

And I like, what really struck
me, the scripture that turned me

from fundamentalism is Romans 7.

6.

And it simply says, Paul said, so we
serve in the new way of the Spirit,

not in the old way of the written code.

All of, all these old formulas of
the old way of the written code.

And it just causes stumbling.

It convicts us over and over of sin.

And you can't keep it.

They couldn't keep the old law.

We can't keep the New Testament as a law.

You want to be perfect as your
father in heaven is perfect.

Okay.

Let's just start right there.

We're all failures.

So give up, let's go home.

But that's not the basis of salvation.

God is good.

And we are to be a proclamation, as he
says in, as Paul writes in Ephesians 2,

6, he is raised us with him and seated
us with him in the heavenlies, the

heavenly realms that in the coming ages,
he might demonstrate the incomparable

riches of his grace expressed through
his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

And when we get that we finally
just submit God is good.

None of us are all have sinned and
fall short of the glory of God.

We're all deserving of eternal
destruction, every one of us.

But this, you know, as Romans 6,
23 says, the wages of sin is death.

But the free gift of God, the
free gift of God is eternal

life in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

And that's, you know, so our New
Testament is this very organic collection

of scriptures that's just reflected.

thing.

And I do believe God guided it.

And I don't believe inspiration is simply
somebody sitting down writing something.

I believe there were scribes.

I believe they were dictating.

I believe there were multiple people.

I think Timothy helped Paul
with some of his letters.

He said he did.

I think they, they did that.

I think the scribes were of God.

These people were very devoted
to keeping the scriptures alive.

I think they probably corrected
some mistakes, some things

that didn't read right.

I do.

But why could it only be that Paul,
who was inspired, but wrote something

that was not very readable, was more
inspired than a scribe that could take

what he said and make it readable?

Why would that, why could
the scribe not be inspired?

He's not an apostle.

Was Timothy an apostle?

Oh he was with Paul.

You see where we go down this road.

It's just this rabbit
trail that leads nowhere.

And again, even with
the translations today.

But the final step of
inspiration is in each one of us.

It's 1 Corinthians 2.

He's given us his spirit
so that we can understand.

You know, these, the scripture Is these
things of God are spiritually discern the

mind without the spirit can accept them.

So the spirit even has to, in
the end, help us understand

what's God really saying.

That's part of the onion thing.

It's serving in the new way of the spirit.

Those who are led by the spirit of God
are the children of God, not those who

are led by some fabricated law that
we deduced from the New Testament.

God's searching our hearts and
saying, what's William up to?

What are you doing?

What what are you doing, John?

What are you really trying to do?

Who's this about here?

And once you finally figure it
out, you go, Oh, it's about God.

And then there's this glorious freedom.

I don't have to work my way to heaven.

I don't have to be right about everything.

I have to be right about the right thing.

Jesus is Lord and he's good.

And I believe him.

And I know that I am not very
good at keeping any of it.

Some days I'm really stinky, you know.

And so, so the Bible is just
this word Bible is just a moniker

that was labeled to this whole
collection of Old New Testament.

It's just Biblos, which means the book.

And each of these books
are individual books.

And they're categories.

It's not a single narrative.

First five books of the Old Testament,
they put together, they call the books

of Lara, the Torah, the Pentateuch.

The second, the 12 that follow
them are books of history.

And they're just a history of Israel.

And they're mainly a horror story.

of how bad Israel did it
trying to do God's will.

And then you've got the writings
and, you know, the Proverbs say

things that it's like, I mean, if
you don't kind of stop and think you

take them as some kind of law, raise
up a child in the way he should go.

And when he's old, he
will not depart from it.

That's just an utter law.

And if your kid doesn't go
well, you didn't do right.

Then God didn't do right.

If you're going to interpret
that way, I don't think that's

supposed to be used that way.

I think there's a spiritual
interpretation that it's a

generalization and it's encouraging.

Yes.

You know, we're going to do this,
but We're not going to do it.

We don't get to be perfect parents, but
I could go on some of those proverbs,

you know, about beating your son.

In context, that's a
different time and place.

I think you beat your kid today.

You're going to get beaten.

So it's that doesn't work anymore.

In our society.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't discipline
our children, so we have to be careful

with this literalism that fundamental
fundamentalism attempts to do, and

they're terrible at it because you can't,
you cannot literally obey everything

the New Testament said, because you
can have women shout up in church

and then have them pray and prophesy.

You can't do both of those things.

And there's quite a few of those things.

We can't be saved by faith and be saved
by works because the scripture says both.

Which is it?

You've got to spend a little
bit of time to say in context

what each of those is saying.

But you can't, you're going to have to
make some spiritual interpretations.

You can't literalize them.

So the Bible's put together, why that way,
the old Testament prophets, many people,

they quote the old Testament prophets.

Like they're talking to
the 21st century church.

They were talking to ancient Jews.

Be careful about thinking
those prophecies are about us.

That's dangerous.

The New Testament, you got four
Gospels, there are four accounts of

Jesus they don't always even agree.

There's some things they don't agree on.

There's no substantial disagreement
that changes the meaning of anything.

They're human disagreements.

Were there two men
standing there or three?

You know, did Judas go hang himself or
did he go out and his guts fall out?

Oh, they said it's both.

He was hanging there
and his guts fell out.

That, that is an odd thing for
one or the other not to mention.

Now, where did they get that?

Did God dictate it wrong?

Did God not know exactly
what happened to Judas?

But that's not what it's written for.

That's, it's not that kind of book,
but we put it there and that's put

us up in front of the world to their
criticism because we say the complete

inspiration with God wrote it.

Everything's true.

Okay.

Then in the book of Acts, it
just so happened coincidentally

that all of these major incidents
were exactly round numbers.

Exactly 3, 000 people got baptized.

Is that not amazing that exactly
3, 000 people got baptized?

What's literal?

God knew.

He dictated it, right?

You know, in the Gospels, there's exactly
5, 000 people in that crowd that got fed.

There was another 4, 000.

Now the Bible, there's places
it gives specific numbers.

But things are rounded off.

Nobody expected it to be that way.

That's not the point.

So anyway, our Bible is
just this very organic book.

The New Testament, we've
got the four gospels.

We've got the book of Acts.

It doesn't record
everything the apostles did.

It records basically what Paul
did a little bit about, you know,

Peter, James, and John, and a little
bit about the Jerusalem church.

The rest of it was how.

The gospel got to the West world.

It doesn't tell about
Thomas going to India.

It doesn't tell how the gospel went on
down in the church spread into Africa,

North Africa, such that one of the, the
pillar churches was down in Alexandria.

They had the best library, the Christian
library there got burned up, but they

were, there was a robust church in Africa.

And you know, it is believed that
Thomas got martyred in India.

By the Hindus.

So, you know, and I, that's
in Chennai where Sukumar is.

So, you know, we saw that, you know,
there's a, the Catholics have built

a church up there and a shrine.

So anyway, we just don't get that.

And then you've got these letters
written by a cadre of people.

Same thing.

It wasn't agreed which
letters ought to be in there.

And so some were in, some were out,
they were back in, they were back out,

and eventually the churches consensed
on which ones they would accept.

But the church did that, and Jesus
had told them, whatever you bind

on earth will be bound in heaven.

I think we have a
responsibility to do that.

But when we try to split hairs with
the scripture, we do damage to it

because we quit serving in the new
way of the spirit and we start trying

to serve in the letter of the law.

And our Bible is not written
that way, even the Old Testament.

It doesn't give us everything.

It's just hard to know how to do stuff.

But there are some very specific
things, but we don't even relate to it.

So, the Bible is this very
organic book about how God has

worked through imperfect people.

That his will can be seen through it.

But when Jesus came
along, the Jews worshiped.

In fact, at the synagogue,
they would start their service.

They would bring the Torah out, and they
would walk around with the scrolls and

everybody would stand in honor of it
because it really they worshiped that.

And that's why they got lost.

God got lost in that, just like
today in so many of our churches.

We worship the Bible,
and God's lost in that.

He's incidental to it.

And if that sounds, you know, extreme,
I don't know what else to say.

Because even in the churches that claim
to be rigorous about it, some of those

very churches are the ones they're mean,
they're unfriendly, they're dogmatic,

they're divisive, they're hateful.

And it's like, wait,
where is Jesus in that?

You know, where the Spirit of the
Lord is, there's freedom, and some of

those are the most cultic sectarian
groups, and there's no freedom at all.

It's fear.

That's all you got is fear.

You've got to constantly be trying
to live up to some, you know,

arbitrary interpretation of some
scripture and we get in trouble.

But the scripture was
not written that way.

Jesus came to the Pharisees again.

Their whole education was
the basics primary school.

They learned to read and
write from reading that.

The books of the law, and they
memorized them as best they could.

They memorized them and at each
stage, the ones that would go through

what we would see as high school had
memorized the whole Old Testament.

I can't even imagine, but that's
they didn't have science and math.

They just did that all day long.

And yet Jesus said to them in that
text that begins about in Matthew 5 35,

he's challenging these very people and
he's saying, his word is not in you.

God's word is not in you.

These are the people that
have seen the miracles.

But he says, his word is not in you.

And then he said, you search the
scriptures because you think it's

in them that you have eternal
life, but you won't come to me.

To have life.

That's where the concentric
circles come from.

We've got to use the Bible
to help us come to Him.

And that's just the deal.

And the Jews made that mistake.

I think the churches are
making that mistake today.

That's why people have to quote
unquote go to church to get their fix.

We're supposed to be going to
church to build up the body.

Not to get our fix and be told
how right we are in our religion.

the different views of Scripture,
William, there's a whole wing of

society that just believes the Bible is
just one more kind of religious book.

John: Scripture.

Ronnie: didn't originate with
God, it originated with religious

people, the Jews and then the
Christians that followed them.

That's just another human book that
relates to people trying to relate to God.

On the other extreme, there are
people that just talk about it

like God said it and dictated it.

Word for word.

And those are the extreme fundamentalists
that try to be literalists.

Everything is literal, and that
just, you gotta bury your head

in the sand to try to do that.

But everybody, if everybody's
got their head buried in the

sand, everything looks like sand.

And, you know, it's just this
deal, and everybody thinks

of course it looks like sand.

We've all got our heads in it.

I could use a worse illustration, but,

William: What was the you used to
make a joke about people who would

say that they believed the Bible
from cover to cover, basically.

Ronnie: I mean, I think the quote I
heard one time is, I believe the whole

Bible from the table of contents to maps.

William: break, and

Ronnie: And it's like, you know,
those were statements I would hear.

It's like, that is so stupid.

Am I the only one in here that thinks
that's stupid, but you've got people

sitting there going, Hey man, they
can't do something wrong with either.

There's something wrong with these people.

There's something really wrong.

How would you say that?

And most of us were just
basically ignorant people anyway.

We just were going on what somebody said
that was not very educated in it, and we

were basing our faith in our scholars.

Not in the scripture,
not in the spirit of God.

So we were relying on the right,
the King James version of the Bible.

My gosh, it was authorized
by a corrupt King of England.

It wasn't, but that was
the authorized version.

It sounded really official
and who authorized it?

You thought God did.

And you've got, I mean, I grew up
listening to old twangy Oklahoma

people, which I was, reading King
James English and then praying in it.

These old country people just
praying, we thank thee God.

And it's like, thee?

Who uses that?

But it was like, it was
this kind of holy language.

No, it's just old English.

I mean, middle English, you
know, later English, actually.

The It's just a lot of this stuff,
William, just really gets us

messed up, but that kind of stuff.

And that's why you see in the evangelical
movement, people are going to go look

at the statements of faith and make sure
that somebody says, we believe the Bible

is infallible and inherent and complete.

And it's like why we're in the
Bible, does God command people?

To do that, we're not supposed
to be judgmental and condemning.

We're not supposed to be divided.

We're certainly not supposed
to be arrogant and self

righteous about all of it.

We're supposed to be very loving.

But we just ignore that stuff and we're
right because we believe the right.

That's just Pharisee ism
resurrected into Christianity.

And that's what Jesus hated.

And that's why I said before, we, our
churches, we read Jesus addressing

the church at Laodicea and the seven
churches of Asia in Revelation 3, saying

the thing he hates is lukewarmness.

Be hot or be cold.

Because you're lukewarm,
you make me want to vomit.

And that's literally what he
said, I'm going to vomit you out.

But our churches have mastered
the art of producing lukewarmers.

And if you try to get people to be
super zealous for Jesus, then, oh

my gosh, there's something wrong.

You're judgmental and
you're mean and you're this.

No, I'm just telling people, this is
what Jesus says we do to follow him.

All I'm doing is saying what Jesus said.

I have been called a heretic.

For simply quoting scripture,
literally more than once I

said, I just quoted a scripture.

Yeah.

But what you're saying about it is heresy.

I didn't say anything about it.

I quoted it, but that's how close minded.

And that's what the Jews did
when the reading of the law, it

was like a veil came over them.

It was, they were darkened by it.

And that's the same with
the reading of the Bible.

It's just a veil over a lot of Christians
eyes, and they worship the Bible.

I love the Bible.

You guys know how much I love Scripture.

How much of it I have written inside
of me, how much I can quote it.

It has saved me because it's led me
to God, but I didn't start there.

You know, I was zealous.

I was a Pharisee sometime.

I didn't mean to be, but I was like Saul.

I was just doing what I was taught.

I was arguing these arguments.

I was saying these things and.

Gosh, I just don't want to go there
because it makes me really sad.

And it's like, but I did the
best I knew how, you know, I

got here as soon as I could.

And it has been so costly, you
know, and people and what people

think, and you just can't explain
everything, qualify everything.

And the church can be just so horrendously
unmerciful and judgmental and you

just kind of go on down the road.

It's like, you know, somebody back from
one of my ministries that I just, I mean,

I just got hammered over racial issues.

This person recently, what she said
we just heard that you were having

Rach racial reconciliation classes.

Number one, that expression
is absolutely new.

Nobody used the term racial
reconciliation back in the 1970.

So we're gaslighting a
little bit here, but.

I had an outreach to black kids on that
all white campus in an all white town,

you know, still in the middle of the
civil rights first round of it in the 70s.

A black guy walked up and looked
in our student center through the

glass doors and my wife saw him.

And I'm sure he looked in,
it was all white people.

We were having a, we were
having a dinner, which we would

have for the college students.

I had gone to one of our
supporting churches to speak.

I wasn't even there that night, but
Tana was there and he turned to leave

and she went out and got Rob Daniels.

Rob Daniels, one of the
sweetest, neatest guys ever, and

became one of my dear friends.

That's how the blacks started coming.

I didn't go out and think, I'm
going to go reach black people.

God taught me about black people my
freshman year through Leon Douglas,

but that was, again, not a part of
some brilliant search on my part.

I was curious.

I was just trying to learn.

That's all.

And he would talk to me.

But and through that, our
ministry became very integrated

in this very non integrated city.

And I just caught hell over it.

Got accused of all this stuff.

And it's just, you know, all I was
trying to do was just do ministry.

That's it.

I was just trying to help people and every
place I've been, I've caught some of that.

It's just like, why do we have to do this?

Because I didn't the second year
it came down that because I told.

One of the ministers, not Brent
Adams, I want to make sure I say that,

a minister that I just didn't see
this non instrumental music thing.

I just think God's going to condemn
people for being unloving way before

he's going to worry about a piano.

And I didn't, I just, I didn't preach it.

I didn't share it with anybody else,
but he went around and whispered that

I wasn't sound on instrumental music.

You would have thought
I said, God is a devil.

I don't, that just, Oh, that was huge.

And it's just like, that
was everywhere I was.

There was stuff like that.

So anyway, I'm way off.

So I'll stop right there and
just let y'all ask a follow on.

John: Our questionnaire, you call
yourself a dirt road country boy that

God picked up for his own reasons
and decided to do something with.

So what do you mean by that?

And coming from those roots,
how do you become knowledgeable?

Not only in understanding
scripture, but in applying it.

In the different ways you do and
without being a fundamentalist

or turning into a legalist

Ronnie: I definitely started out the
pure, we weren't bought in those circles

with would be purely fundamentalist.

So when I say that, that's Me
referring to a whole range of people

that just believed not necessarily
that the Bible was literal, but that

there were certain fundamentals that
had to be obeyed to go to heaven.

And so they were looking
for the essentials, the

things that were necessary.

That's what I'm referring to.

And that made sense in our world.

I mean, it was post World War II,
baby boomers coming out, trying

to, you know, Christianity was
really coming of age in America.

It was declaring its
independence from Europe.

There's just a whole lot of
social and cultural transition,

national transition going on.

As it always is to some
degree, but that's my world.

Like I say, there was nothing beautiful
or scientific or glorious about my search.

I was just a desperate guy
that was confused and I

didn't know which way was up.

And I'm a person that sorts
things out, but I didn't have

any data to sort it out with.

I didn't know.

I didn't know what was normal.

I didn't know what the scriptures taught.

I didn't know what really we believed.

I just knew a little, these remnants
of what I'd learned as a kid.

And that was just more
little fragments of thoughts.

And then my dad's, you know, preaching,
my dad was the preaching is unbeliever

that you would have ever known.

Cause he's, Oh, it says in the Bible and
you know, after I got to know the Bible,

most of it was just him, you know, saying
it to make his point, but it really didn't

say it, I'm a skeptical of all of it, but
I did what I do as I, you guys know me, I.

If I think it's important, I'm going
for it and I'm going to, I'm going

to do well at it to whatever degree
I think we need to, but the important

things I'm going to give my best to.

I did that with my family.

I've done that with church, but so I
threw myself into learning scripture.

I went to every class I could go to I read
what I could read, I went to conferences.

I very quickly started, they would
have a couple of years, a couple of

times a year they would have a gospel
meeting, and they would bring in a

special speaker from another church.

I would volunteer to take
them to lunch or dinner.

And so I could.

Ask questions.

Every conference I went to, I would
try to talk to preachers that were

there, speakers that I thought were
good, and I would school them people.

A lot of it, you know, I was
learning from argumentation.

We were trying to make our points
with friends, and so we were back and

forth with Baptists and Pentecostals
and Methodists, and we're all

stupid, you know, but we were hearing
messages that they were hearing.

I was hearing in our church and while we
would still contend about that, we would

realize we kind of got whipped sometimes
and we really didn't have good scriptures.

And I would go in, I
would try to rearm myself.

And that's when I would
ask questions about verses.

And then I would look at those verses
and then they really don't say that.

Those aren't very good verses.

Do we have anything better?

And we didn't.

And it's like, that's weak.

So I was honest enough to do that.

I was also learning about discipleship
and trying to help people and trying

to explain the scripture to a lot of
people that were just like me, that

never, they knew anything about it.

They knew enough to be dangerous.

And that was it.

And all of these things were informing my
walk and just what was going on with me.

I was also, I started, I'd already
started going to counseling off and on

for my own inner junk, because again, the
church was not a therapeutic community.

That was kind of a side thing you did.

We didn't talk about that kind of stuff
at church or in our groups, but we had an

elder Would do counseling and it was good.

I mean, it was, for me, it was,
yeah, he's the first person I really

told some of the junk in my life.

He's the one that found me a counselor
down in Sherman because I didn't want

anybody to know I was going counseling.

He didn't do that.

So I would sneak off down
there after work, you know, and

drive to Sherman and go to this
counseling, but I was messed up.

And I, nobody, I never really helped me.

Nobody to talk about it.

Even he couldn't help me because
again, that's what he did.

He was a pharmacist.

He was a sweet man.

That's why I went to him.

Did so much for me, but So
I was going to counselors.

I was doing things.

I had family that weren't from
my particular denomination.

We'd talk about that stuff.

So it was just kind of all around.

It was I don't know.

It was a lot of stuff, but there
was no big scientific I'm doing this

great research in the libraries.

It was messy.

It was just trying to Slogged through
all this and each step of the way the

ministries I associated with there were
just things that really bothered me

I'd always been a referential learner
I would watch what people were doing

and because that's how I grew up
watching my siblings do stuff And then

I would kind of improvise from that.

I still do that.

So very quickly I just realized there
were problems in the way we use scripture.

There were problems in what we
believed about the scripture.

Just getting honest.

It's like we're telling people stuff.

It's like, what are we doing here?

That's not, I don't even believe that.

So there were a lot, there were more and
more things I couldn't say to people.

I just didn't talk about it.

I just wanted to lead people to Jesus.

So I can tell you bonafide all
the way back to Duran, I was

teaching people about Jesus.

And that's what I knew that
was central and it was becoming

more central in Colorado.

I've had that reflected
back to me over and over.

There was still some of that
ruled stuff in there for sure.

That's all I knew.

But each step of the way
I was shedding that stuff.

And I had to go down that
discipling movement road

because again, it's what I knew.

And it was the thing closest to what I
believed about what ministry should be.

But I got down where they were going
and I thought, no, this is not it.

This is an authoritarian
cultic kind of way of doing

things in Jesus didn't even do.

And he could have.

But he didn't.

And so I left it all, you know, so then I
came back here, eventually started over.

God sent me back to the church of Christ.

And I was very frank with them at that
point, that I was not that anymore.

I was non denominated.

I didn't really belong
anywhere in my mind.

I mean, I don't fit anywhere.

Not because I couldn't fit, but because
every church had their own little shape.

The cost of fellowship is you
got to be shaped like this.

You got to believe these things.

And you, it didn't take long to
listen to their code and learn that.

So what their deal was.

And by that time I was quite astute.

I didn't, God didn't
let me go to seminary.

He made it clear he was going
to train me his own way.

And he did for what I do, I'm not.

a theologian by those standards.

I wanted to be, I would have loved to
have had a master of divinity or a doctor.

I could have done all that.

God didn't want me to.

I'm convinced that's what he led me to do.

And he wanted me to be this
dirt road guy that I'm his deal.

I'm a God deal and all my glorious,
my inglorious imperfection.

This is what God did and I'll give him
the credit and that's that he saved me.

I'm not here because I'm good.

I'm here because God is good.

So

that's what I wanted.

I want a relationship with, and
you just kept getting institution.

And I was already non institutional.

I didn't like the way organizations
did stuff and I became increasingly

frustrated with institutional church
and how everybody wanted to control

something, let's get something so we can
control it and we can take credit for it.

I just, that just didn't seem godly.

So I really looked at scripture and that's
where the concentric circles came down.

Cause when you read the Bible, it.

Paul's letters sound like Paul writing.

They don't sound like God writing.

Now, there are some things he says
that sound like God is moving him.

Very.

There's other things that
they're framing things.

He's just talking about things going on.

All the writers were kind of that way.

It was like, this is kind of necessary.

Backstory to get us to this sermon, you
know, Matthew's got five main blocks of

teaching and there's this other stuff, but
the gospel writers were not biographers.

They were using biographical
information about Jesus to make a point.

Nobody in that time expected
that I told stories.

Nobody was going to go fact check anybody.

It's like You know, that's not
how it works, but we want to read

it in 21st century fact checking
mode and then judge it that way.

I mean, You're the fool in that.

That's the way it's written.

It's like trying to judge Shakespeare
by some modern Poetic principles.

I mean, he's just one of the most famous
Men ever in that field and you think

you're gonna sit here by your modern
standards and criticize him We'll wait

and see where your name is in about 2,
000 years and see how you're doing But

I don't so that's where I came from.

But I just this idea you don't come
to me You know to find life in this

whole my science background looking at
creation trying to correlate the Bible and

Creation and faith and just all of these
other things that feed into that where

how does the church and the church is?

Work in that, other people, the Holy
Spirit, prayer, all of that was just

swirling inside of me as I tried
to synthesize this into something

as a pastor I could shepherd with.

And those concentric circles came down,
the outer circle is we see people.

We see people that were writing it.

We have lots of times we have names.

Something we don't even know.

It said that Moses wrote
the first five books.

How did Moses know what
happened in creation?

Did God tell him that too?

We assume he did.

Did God tell him to write,
you write down Moses.

You're the most humble man alive.

It's like, I don't think so.

I think some scribe put that in.

And, but does it change
the meaning of any of it?

No.

The whole point is you can't keep this
and you better get over yourselves,

but this is the best you try.

You'll have the best shot
at being a decent nation.

And they didn't and they weren't.

And so that's what happened.

So you read these and it
was written to people.

It mentions, you know, specific people.

Good, bad, ugly.

Who are these people and what
am I supposed to do with that?

And then, it's written in these
cultures that are foreign to us.

The veils and all this stuff
they're talking about, it's like,

women and what, I mean these women
were bought and sold like cattle.

What are we supposed to do with that?

Propagate that?

And that bothered me.

Because it just didn't look like Jesus.

And that's where more and more
Jesus was becoming the interpretive

benchmark for me, that we need to
read every scripture table of contents

to maps through the eyes of Jesus.

And I don't think Jesus was very concerned
about your table of contents and he lived

on those maps and he's not particularly
concerned about that because we don't

know what the heck was going on mostly.

And we just kind of, somebody drew him.

And that changes everything.

You know, it's this attitude of Christ.

I've talked about us doing one.

We begin to see things through the eyes
of Christ, but you can only do that the

more you get to know him, but you get
to know about him through scripture.

You do not get to know
Jesus through the scripture.

You get to know about him.

You get to know him through experience,
creation and the things around us,

other Christians and the church.

Amen.

The experiences he brings our way,
the blessings, the discipline.

It's everywhere we look.

You develop a relationship with God
in life, not by reading the Bible.

So I, that's where the culture and
then even the religion, because

we're trying to, what's Cain
and Abel offering sacrifices?

What does that have to do with that?

The Corinthian church.

You know, we don't even know mostly
what they were doing, but how are we

supposed to imitate the Corinthian church?

They were a bad example, but they're
the most description we have of

what they were doing in church.

So should we try to do what they
did, but not how they did it?

Is that what we're supposed to do?

And so we're going to nail all
that down like we've got some

prescription and we just don't.

So what is it telling us about God?

The first thing is that God chose to
work to a fallen imperfect world to

show his glory, to inform the spiritual
powers that were in rebellion and to

ultimately destroy evil with them.

That's what he chose to do.

And that's our story.

And we just put our faith in Jesus.

We just put our faith in God.

God's that good.

He's just that good.

And that's where we put our faith.

So that's why when we read the Bible,
yes, you've got to see who is Paul?

What's he doing?

Who is this Timothy guy that's helping
him with a couple of these things?

Who are these people he's talking about?

Who is this church?

Where are they?

What do they got going on?

What's their story?

And thankfully we do have.

You know, scholars and theologians
that have dug up a lot of that stuff.

But even if they didn't guys, I
don't think that God stakes our

salvation on us being theologians.

If he did, what did people
do that couldn't even read?

Now, I do believe God's going
to hold us accountable, but

so much of our scholarship has
not made us better Christians.

It's made us worse.

We take pride in ourselves.

So the goal of the scripture is to read,
peel back each layer so that we see what's

kind of their culture and what's, you
know, feeding into this, what was going

on in their kind of religious situation,
what other religions were impacting them.

That's when we talk about the Gnostic
philosophy as it kind of came down

from Greece and was infiltrating.

everything through the Hellenistic
culture that they had planted.

That's just part of the
religion part I'm talking about.

You just need to know
that's being addressed.

Even the gospel of John is taking on
cause he's written it to the church to

defend Jesus against Some of these new
notions that were being concocted by

the Gnostic Gospels and what they were
trying to say to make Jesus compatible

with what they already believed.

But you don't do that.

He doesn't mix with that.

I don't know.

Does that help?

William: Okay, one thing that just
kinda popped into my head as we probably

need to start wrapping up pretty soon.

Ronnie: Because you need to lead.

John and I are really
willing to go longer.

William: guys could always
go without me if you wanted.

Wouldn't hurt my feelings
that, all that much.

John: Wouldn't be near as good.

We couldn't

Ronnie: so important for us to please you.

John: we, I mean, we want
to make sure you're happy

Ronnie: we would

John: that your name is being promoted.

Ronnie: Your unhappiness.

John: the

Ronnie: Sorry.

Oh, you're one more

William: Okay okay, yeah, so we were
actually kind of talking about this

a little bit during the break, but
just thinking about people who may be

listening to this whenever that might be.

And they're approaching maybe
they're a new believer or they're

not a believer at all and they're
approaching the bible and you know, I

don't know if you ever felt this way.

I certainly did Growing up the
bible can just feel it's massive.

There's so much going on.

You open it up.

You joked about this earlier.

It's a very common experience.

You read some Genesis.

You roll through Exodus.

About halfway through Exodus, you
start going, Oh man, it's This,

the narrative's fading a little
bit and now I'm a little stuck.

Then you open Leviticus and it's like,
I don't even, I can't keep doing this.

I guess what I'm getting at is, what
would your encouragement be to someone

listening to this who doesn't have
a great relationship with the Bible,

doesn't have experience reading it?

And that can be practical,
it can be more encouragement.

Man, what would you say to
someone in that situation,

Ronnie: I tell them if I've got
one thing, read the gospel of john

and read the book of Ephesians.

Just, and just listen for
what they're trying to say.

Not so much the details.

It would be helpful to
read it all at once.

Listen to it while you
read it on your Bible app.

If you've never done that, there's
a Bible app that there's multiple

ones that will, you can get them
to read it to you as you read it.

And really listen to why
are they writing this?

Why did these people give
their whole lives to this?

What would prompt them to do this?

They risked their lives over this.

They gave their lives for it.

Why?

Why is John, why is this such a big deal?

He's the only one that was not
martyred, as far as we know,

of the original apostles.

You know?

And why would he do this?

What's he trying to say?

To the ages to come once he trying to
say to the church of that day and once

he's saying to us today About Jesus
and once Paul saying is he really is

processing in this letter He wrote
to the church at Ephesus maybe It

was just ended up in Ephesus, maybe
it was written to all the churches

and it was circulated and it ended up
in Ephesus because it really doesn't

give a lot of reference to anything in
Ephesus but with that said, it's nobody

really debates that Paul wrote it.

It has a companion book that he sent
to the Colossians that has a lot of

some of the same kinds of things in it.

What's he saying about,
what does this mean?

To be, to live in Christ, which is equated
with the church, to be in Christ was to

be part of his body, which is his church.

And try to listen, you know, to the
emotion of it, to the feeling of it,

to the spirit of it, and don't get
caught up into the biographics yet,

because you can go back and do that.

Listen to what's being said.

These are real people.

That it gave everything for this,
you know, that's why when people

listen, I've given everything to this.

I don't have anything else.

Oh, why?

Why did I dedicate my whole family?

None of my kids are doctors
or lawyers or rich people.

I'm not rich.

I live the church still supports me.

I have to work.

I'm 72.

I couldn't retire on what I have.

I don't care.

You know, I don't care.

That's of no consequence to me.

That's what God led me to
do, and I don't regret it.

One iota.

So, why?

Why would I do that?

What's the undercurrent?

It's when you listen to me, it's because
God really is real, and He's really good.

Jesus really is Lord, you
know, it's just real to me.

That's why Paul at the very end of his
life could say, Oh, at everybody abandoned

me, but Christ stood right by my side.

And that's why he could die satisfied
saying, I have finished the course.

I've kept the faith,
finished the race, I'm done.

And therefore there is laid up
for me a crown of righteousness.

He believed that.

He said, I know.

In whom I have believed and I am
confident that he is able to deliver

what he has promised me on that.

That's what I believe.

And I look at the way the world lives.

I don't want to be a selfish, greedy,
power monger, trying to impress

people, trying to be all this or that.

I don't want to be that.

I want to help people.

I want to help the least.

I want to be in a position to care
about people nobody else cares about.

You know, I got a text from one of
the guys you would know the other day

and said, Dad, I've been really sick.

I've been in the hospital and
I don't have enough money to

make it to my next paycheck.

I didn't get paid very much.

You could help me a little bit.

I delight in helping those people.

I know he called me from the hospital,
got an abscess and he was very sick,

but he just lives like so many people.

He's trying really hard.

You know, that's what I want to do.

I don't, the things the world
has, I know what that is and

I don't want any part of it.

So yeah, read those letters that
way and just look at what was John

trying to tell us about Jesus?

How did he experience him?

Because Jesus is just as real today.

John is the one that recorded Jesus
saying, if anyone has my teaching and

obeys them, my father will love them and
we will come and make our home with them.

John said that.

He believed that.

I believe that.

I believe Jesus does
live with me and in me.

Again, not because I'm good,
I'm some super, I'm not.

I'm damaged, I struggle every
day with so many things.

Like I say, before you guys got here,
I was just feeling very anxious.

Tan is not feeling very good.

You know, we're going to MD Anderson
next week to get these scans.

And it's just, it feels like
we're standing at the, you

know, the end of a gun barrel.

Wife's life is on the, but I was feeling
that way, but you know, God does come

to me and reminds me, I got this.

I gave her to you.

And when it's time,
I'll take her from you.

Or I'll take you from her.

The Lord gives and the Lord takes away.

And I'm reminded of those words.

My sheep hear my voice
and they listen to me.

And those sweet words of Jesus come back.

You know, do not let
your heart be troubled.

You believe in God.

Believe also in me.

My father's house are many rooms.

If it weren't so, I would tell you.

I'm going to prepare a place for
you, and if I go to prepare it, I

will come back and get you, so that
where I am, there you may be also.

Lord, how can we know the way?

You know the way.

I am the way, the truth and the lie.

No one comes to the Father but by me.

Oh Lord, show us the Father
and that'll be enough.

If you've seen me, you've seen the Father.

That's why I read John.

And you see what Hebrews 1.

3 calls the exact representation
of the bearer of the glory

and truth and grace of God.

And you listen to him talk to
people not in just sweetsie terms.

He asked a man that had been paralyzed for
38 years, dude, do you want to get well?

And the guy said, why don't you
put me into that pool over there

that he thought could heal him?

And he said, Hey, get up and walk.

I mean, it seems kind of rude.

It seems brusque, and sometimes
he did that with people.

And then you've just got this woman
caught in adultery, and he's saying no.

Where did everybody go lady?

Where are your accusers?

She said, Oh, they're all gone.

And he said, lady, I don't accuse you.

And Jesus was the one that had the
right to, he said, just stop it.

Stop living this way.

Why?

Because he needed a truth.

No, because it was destroying her.

This was bad.

This is not helpful.

It's not the way of God.

And again, Ephesians are
so many beautiful lines.

You know, just this idea that you
may know this love that surpasses

knowledge, that you can be filled
to the measure of the fullness.

That's a deal.

The whole deal is you get God back.

And it's just the next step in it.

And it's the step to the final step.

Then I shall know, even as I'm fully
known, no more faith, no more hope.

I'm living in it.

I'm there.

And that's what I think
is going to happen.

That's what I believe.

That's all I got, William.

William: right?

Ronnie: I want you to go do now
what's really important, whatever

that is, it's more important than

John: Yeah, what are you running
off to, why don't you tell

William: It's

John: let your fans

William: have.

I have lunch with my
leaders from Wiley East.

John: leaders, why did
you put that in quotes?

William: they're

Ronnie: that's important.

William: That was beautiful.

Thanks for all that.

You wanna say anything beneficial?

John: I was going to say
something until you added that

qualifier, so, that's all I got,

William: Alright, how do
you want to close us today?

Ronnie: Since we're talking about the
Bible, I'm going to quote one of the

first little poems that just stuck
in my head that I've never forgotten.

It's actually a verse out of a poem.

I won't go into all that, but
it just says about the Bible

despised and torn to pieces.

By infidels decried, the thunderbolts
of hatred, the haughty cynics pride,

all these have rallied against it, and
this and other lands, but dynasties

have fallen and still the Bible stands.

John: boom, mic drop.